Mae Mariyam Thomas 00:16
From the Godrej DEI Lab, welcome to India Included. Here's your host, Parmesh Shahani.
Parmesh Shahani 00:28
And just like that - we come to the last episode of this season of India Included.
Is that a solitary tear trickling down your cheek? Don’t worry, I promise you there will be season two - but for that you have to shower us with your love. So listen to all the episodes, share this podcast with all your friends and together - let's come together and create more inclusive workplaces in India. Viksit Bharat has to be an inclusive Bharat, and it is up to all of us to make this happen.
This last episode is about our very own Godrej Industries Group, and we are only 127-years-young. We grew alongside India’s swadeshi movement - the O.G. “Make In India” - and we grew alongside our freedom struggle. Today we make buildings, financial products, soaps, snacks, mosquito repellents – stuff that’s made its way into hundreds of millions of homes.
Godrej has what I think is a pretty unique reputation for trust. I once met a senior HR supervisor at a Godrej Consumer Products plant in Malanpur, Madhya Pradesh who was the first woman in her family to go to work. All the way back in 1991, just before the plant began operations, this supervisor’s mother had cycled to the gates of the factory to submit her daughter’s job application. She didn’t know what job it would be, she had no idea what life in a factory staffed fully by men was supposed to be like. But she trusted that her daughter would do well there because she’d heard the name ‘Godrej,’ and felt it could be relied upon.
In all the years I’ve worked here, I’ve realised how important this trust is to the role Godrej plays in the lives of its consumers and its employees. This essential sense of fairness, of being an institution that others can trust, that sees social progress as part and parcel of economic progress, has often informed the relationship between Godrej Industries and the people who work here.
That fairness is fundamental to DEI work. I remember when I first joined Godrej, I asked, why do all the forms say ‘spouse’ and not ‘partner.’ You know, they changed the language immediately, and ever since, every family benefit for Godrej employees has framed in the most gender-neutral, queer-friendly way possible.
Godrej isn’t the only Indian company at the DEI party - we are working alongside and learning from so many others. You’ve heard from some of these other companies on other episodes of this podcast. Hint hint #nopressure: Listen to all the other episodes. Now, we at Godrej happen to focus our DEI efforts on three historically excluded groups, or “focus cohorts,” if you want to use the HR term: women, LGBTQIA+ folks, and persons with disabilities - and these are also cohorts that almost every major Indian company officially focuses on.
We are only as good as what we do next is what my boss Nisa Godrej tells me all the time. So we are trying - we are experimenting - we are learning - and that is what today’s episode is about - the story of how one company is trying to get inclusion right. I have with me in my studio today, two very special and unique guests, these are two key people at the heart of Godrej’s DEI ecosystem, they will tell you the story of inclusion at Godrej Industries – how far we’ve come, how we got here, and where we’re going to go together. Sandhya Ramesh, DEI Lead at Godrej Consumer Products; and Zoya, DEI Lead at Godrej Properties – welcome to the last episode of India Included. Let me tell everyone a little bit about both of you.
Sandhya Ramesh heads DEI initiatives at Godrej Consumer Products Limited. She’s involved with GCPL’s diversity missions around the world, and can tell you how DEI looks different in Latin America and in West Africa from what it looks like in India.
When Zoya came to work at GPL a few years ago, the Godrej One headquarters had, I think, one gender-neutral bathroom and maybe 5 queer people, that we knew of. Today, I can say with pride that I work at a group with more than 150 out and proud LGBTQIA+ employees - YAYY! - a majority of that number comes from Godrej Properties, and a majority of those people would probably credit Zoya as having played a pivotal role in their career and their success. From helping to grow an ERG for women in real estate, to diving deep into how to scale disability inclusion at work, to being an icon for queer people and allies at Godrej, they’re in the thick of it all.
Welcome to the show, both of you. I’m so excited to tell the Godrej story with you. But I’m also excited to learn and tell your stories.
So Zoya, Sandhya, how do you feel being on my couch?
Sandhya Ramesh 05:48
It's liberating.
Parmesh Shahani 05:49
Zoya, you are not saying anything.
Zoya 05:51
It's good, Big Daddy
Parmesh Shahani 05:52
You're feel good. Since you call me Big Daddy, which I am, tell me about you. Tell us about your pre Godrej journey.
Zoya 05:58
I was hired into Tata Capital first. I was into strategy or typical MT. And generally, if you know how campus programs work, in the period of one year, you generally move out to another organisation. Then I did move into another organisation, which is called Jotun. It's in the space of paints and coatings. So I worked there for about six years, pretty long span. I moved around in multiple roles from marketing, digital, retail. And also, I set up the DEI Council in my previous organisation. So my fascination to have a space that is inclusive - and this happened because I just walked up to the then MD, snd I told them that, you know, I feel that there is a lot of work that we need to do in the space of inclusion. And they were very forthcoming in kind of coming, saying that, okay, what do we need to do? And that's when we set up the DEI Council. And from there is where my work on DEI started. I think somebody from Godrej picked it up. They called me for an interview.
Parmesh Shahani 06:56
And then from like painting people's houses, you came and painted Godrej rainbow.
Zoya 07:00
Yes. You could --
Parmesh Shahani 07:01
So why did you say yes?
Zoya 07:03
I think the culture of hiring itself was really a calling out for me. So when I came, it was not so much of an interview, it was more like a discussion of what she wants to do with GPL. And how I wanted to bring in inclusion in the spaces that I worked. It just fit so well. She told me one thing that Nisa told her - she said that we had all the policies but we don't have the people to use them or to take benefit out of them. So if you see, whatever we have done in the last two years has been to increase the representation, and in the process, also understand that certain policies needed to make some changes, but that's where my journey started.
Parmesh Shahani 07:36
Sandhya - now, you are the most athletic person I've known ever. So how did you come - I know how you came here, I only recruited you, but tell us about - actually, even before you tell us about why you came, how you came here from Great Place To Work. And now I think we are the greatest place to work. But chalo. Tell us about that. Before that, tell me about your journey.
Sandhya Ramesh 07:58
So I started off in like the sales and marketing division of a recruitment process company that was, you know, into design and development in the automotive and aerospace sector. So I was just working initially in recruitment consulting, I got a handle of how recruitment works. I then said, Hey, we don't have like a fully fledged HR department. So I started getting into the understanding of what it requires from an onboarding process from a rewards process. And I think I got my first real corporate break with Lifestyle which was landmarks corporate office in India. Then I worked with Aditya Birla, when they were just taking over Pantaloons from Future group continuing to be in the space of HR, which is when I said, Okay, now it all makes sense. I also pursued a PG from, PGCHRM from XLRI at the same time -
Parmesh Shahani 08:47
Then Great Place To Work.
Sandhya Ramesh 08:48
And then Great Place To Work for about seven years,
Parmesh Shahani 08:51
and then we robbed you.
Sandhya Ramesh 08:52
Yes, I'm here at GCPL.
Zoya 08:54
Wow, seven years.
Parmesh Shahani
Now for both of you - How differently did Indian companies look at DEI when you both first started to work in wherever you all were working, until now? And since y'all have both been at Godrej, how have you yourself seen attitude shift not just within your own group companies, but also within the group at large?
Sandhya Ramesh 09:15
We're actually gonna pass it back to you, Parmesh, because you been here for more than a decade to really see attitude shifts and behaviors shift. So maybe maybe you can talk a little bit about what has unfolded in the last decade or so. And then of course, I'll talk a little bit about...
Parmesh Shahani 09:32
Yeh portion mein nahin tha! But I have seen corporate India toh shift radically. And within that also, I see a clear distinction between performative and intentional committed inclusion. And I think in the past few years, what we've done at Godrej industries, is really committed, intentional, experimental, and much more. But now, let's start with you, since you asked me that question. You tell me. How has it been before and within Godrej Consumer specifically and larger, like what shifts are you seeing happening?
Sandhya Ramesh 10:06
I'd say the entire foray started off - you know, at Great Place To Work, we have something called a Monday morning meeting, and it was one of these one Monday morning meetings where he used to run this session called Thinking Like A Feminist, right, for everybody who would join into the organisation, and one of the Monday morning meetings, he said, "You know, we study so much on employee experience, but we have no insight whatsoever on parity when it comes to experience of whether women in workplaces are experiencing the workplace as similar to their male counterparts, or is there a lot of difference in that and what are those areas? We don't have any insight on that." So it actually started there, Parmesh, and this was back in 2017. And I was, of course, very curious. So he said, "Who would like to take this up?" And I put up my hand although I was in the consulting vertical saying that, you know, if it's research, I think it's important for us to start putting that together. I was so we were working as a team. That year was our first year of India's Best Workplaces For Women, when we had about 75 submissions come in of organisations, saying "What are they doing to ensure that, you know, they're able to hire, retain and grow women in the workplace?" I think when I was looking when we were reading through all the submissions - most of the submissions would typically talk about women's Women's Day, they would talk about very legal aspects of, say, having maternity policies in place, maybe a POSH policy in place, maybe not as much as -
Parmesh Shahani 11:29
Basic
Sandhya Ramesh 11:30
Yeah, so their entire - the language that was used when it came to D&I was hey, we we are an equal employer, which means we're not discriminating, and we're really in the guardrails of the legal frameworks that are required. So I'd say that's where we were, right, in 2017. I think today, you see a very different Indian corporate ecosystem. And I think it's also been powered a lot. We saw that RUSH actually happen after the whole Black Lives Matter movement happened in
Parmesh Shahani 12:00
globally.
Sandhya Ramesh 12:01
Globally. And you saw the the MNCs actually push a lot of thrust to India counterparts to advance diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. I think that opened up the possibilities of other organisations, which were non MNCs, India based organisations to say, Okay, can we also look at this? I think alongside came ESG, it only created more incentive. And I feel today, we're actually sitting at the at the fulcrum of being able to very meaningfully take this journey forward in a sustainable fashion for organisations and the individuals.
Parmesh Shahani 12:37
Zoya, tell us your before and after.
Zoya 12:40
So I think I'll add on to what Sandhya just said - for me when I've seen the DEI landscape from say 2013-2015, a lot of companies started talking about DEI majorly from the MNC space, a lot of it more Western impact. What has happened in post 2015-2017 at least, is that Indian companies are starting to give that Indian context to D&I pertaining to the population and matters to India, right. So when we look at even in like Godrej as a group, we always talk about having the representation of the community that we are serving. If say GCPL, that is Godrej Consumer Products looks at it from emerging markets, then what are the markets they are in? And same thing from an India from a Godrej Properties perspective, we construct homes for India. So if the population that we're serving is Indians, then how do we kind of build the same space? So I think that has been one major change. I'll plug in India culture from when I speak about Godrej. I think the work that you did, Parmesh, over the last 10 years, it really put Godrej onto the space where it started becoming LGBTQ friendly, it started becoming inclusive. And what has happened is whenever I speak about even queer movements, I always say that the work that the current generation is doing is doing it on the backs of what the past generation has really put forward. Right?
Parmesh Shahani 13:57
If everyone's listening, you see how slyly Zoya has called me past generation?
Zoya 14:02
Yeah, but no, no ageism here.
Parmesh Shahani 14:03
Ex-squeeze me. Yeah, India included, but not oldies like you, Snap!
Zoya 14:10
If I'm able to run today, it is because of the the path that you created. The count that you mentioned in the start that we have gone from one to 100 it has happened - it cannot have happened in just two years, right. It has happened over consistently being able to create that environment that people have trust in Godrej, but in the last two years what I at least have come and when we have worked at GPL, the focus has been from moving from say an LGBTQ friendly or a PWD friendly to an LGBTQ inclusive work. And that's setting in the right processes so that the hiring is happening so that people are able to thrive at the workplace. The intent to impact again, I will plug in here, when I joined - So, I'm a trans individual, and when I was interviewing for Godrej as well and I entered into Godrej One, I had done my recce so it had mentioned in the job description that there are gender neutral washrooms. And I did see that there was an all gender washroom in the cafeteria. It was happy, I was happy that it existed. When I was talking to Megha, after joining in the first week or so I told her that you know, we have an all gender washroom but not a gender neutral washroom. She did ask me what is the difference - and what it is, is that all in the washroom is coming out of the space that there is limited space. So when we have a cafeteria, 75% of the space is designed to be for seating area, then you have around 20% for the pantry and around 5% for the washroom. You do not have space and hence it becomes an all gender washroom. As soon as I told her this, I think in the second week we had taken approvals to construct on the fifth floor and the sixth floor, where the Godrej properties is = by the third week we had the blueprints ready, and the fourth week it was constructed. The speed on which that they the intent to impact move is why also, is where I see the difference in the last two years, it has to be committed towards making this change. And this was just one example, okay. And there are multiple spaces where we have been able to now create, say, gender neutral washrooms are all inclusive washrooms in all of our sites, wherever a trans or non binary person is hired, or also where a person with disabilities being hired.
Parmesh Shahani 16:10
So that's actually incredible. And thank you for sharing that. Now to both of you, I want to break down the focus on the three cohorts that we serve together at Godrej - cis women, LGBTQIA+ people and persons with disabilities. Sandhya I want to start with you. Why do most companies focus on these three groups only in India? And are there any other large Indian companies that focus on others? And Zoya, if after that, you could just pitch in as well. But Sandhya?
Sandhya Ramesh 16:41
So, you know, one, Parmesh I feel like even as Godrej we focus on like, so many others, intersections, right, like we focus on say, working parents, we now launched a women veterans program, I think there is an intersection of caregivers who could have elderly care, right. So, I feel like in spirit and at a policy level to be able to acknowledge the intersections just within your workplace, I feel like the organisation focuses on a lot more, but if you, I think look at your ability to kind of - one, tap in into the pure representation that is there in your social fabric, right? Like if you ask me Sandhya is this a focus for GCPL in Indonesia, I may say maybe not. But we may focus more on say, cis-women, PWDs and say the Eastern Indonesian indigenous communities that are there right. So I think one, in India maybe the narrative is a little more grounded here because if you look at the larger social fabric women - cis-women - form almost half of the of the entire population, right and then if you look at persons with disabilities, although the sensex was conducted even before the RPWD Act came into being, right -
Parmesh Shahani 18:01
Tell full form - RPWD is Rights of Persons With Disabilities
Sandhya Ramesh 18:02
which also expanded the definition of Persons with Disabilities - and the RPWD Act, which is Rights for Persons With Disabilities actually, you know, expanded it. But these basically are tangible measures today for us in the broader Indian ecosystem where we've also had a progress legally, right. And I think that's where the Indian ecosystem is saying, Okay, now there is some legal machinery at the broader, you know, ecosystem level. So as organisations, how can we take it a couple of notches higher, better, do more intentional work. And I think that's what's created space for more awareness. So to be able to have conversations, or debunk a lot of stuff, like I know, over the last month, we've spent a lot of time just in sensitisation and education of our senior leaders and managers, you know, in Gwalior, in the head office, about LGBTIQA inclusion, right, and what has the journey and trajectory been like. And the questions in those in those, you know, in those forums also indicate a certain degree of curiosity that has been there for a long time, but no space to have these conversations or these beliefs addressed. So I think I would say, my perception of why today, the larger focus is women, the LGBTIQA community, and persons with disabilities
Parmesh Shahani 19:18
As you're saying, but in other regions, it's different. So Nigeria should be, local Nigerian leadership, right
Sandhya Ramesh 19:25
True, in South Africa, there's a lot of focus around race and ethnicity, because it's just such a, like a cultural melting pot, right? There will definitely be focus on LGBTIQA inclusion as well, but if you look at the Greater Africa region, I mean, Africa really rides on the backs of their women. So our gender representation, in fact, a sizable chunk comes from what we call the Godrej Africa, US in the Middle East business.
Parmesh Shahani 19:49
Correct. Now again, to both of you, I know that DEI - I don't think that it starts with hiring at all. But I think it's where many people who come to the workplace for the first time actually have their first experience with DEI. So, Zoya I want you to tell us specifically about how you've used hiring to really advance queer inclusion in Godrej Properties. So how do you how did you take the people at GPL from literally a handful to now like, 140-200?
Zoya 20:15
I think, yes, everything doesn't start with hiring, but representation is key to increasing the front on DEI, okay. And I say this with all the weight because what generally happens - I told you right, a lot of conversation. We tend to do sensitisation in the most ways - that we take a deck, we do a presentation, and then we'll talk about the women inclusion or LGBTQIA inclusion, may do some awareness on unconscious bias. But what really matters is when you bring in the people into the organisation, right, that is the best form of sensitisation otherwise these these presentations, these sessions will become a lot of gyaan for the people who are not from those marginalised communities and will have nowhere to actually apply this information that they have received. And hence the representation is like the key to the whole structure on D&I. And that's why I think where we focus, like I mentioned, you know, where we said that we had all the policies, but we didn't have the people. In the last two years, we went about hiring - so I think I was like the eighth person who joined GPL. And now we are about 120 in LGBTQ, we have around 80+ in persons with disabilities. And across the spectrum in both of the two cohorts that I just mentioned, even women are sitting at around 29% representation as of financial year last year,
Parmesh Shahani 21:34
Which is above industry average, but far from what would be -
Zoya 21:38
Yeah. The industry average for construction and real estate is 12%. It's the saddest - and it's sad that construction and real estate or reality as a sector is the second largest industry that recruits or employs people after agriculture, right. And then you having a 12% really makes an impact. And that's why also when we look at GPL, we say that we're not building talent for just ourselves, we're building for the industry. People may join us, may leave us for some time, but we know that they will come back to us for the culture that we create, right. We are focused on hiring people from these marginalised cohorts - I think a lot of hiring drives, working with consultants in the space of these marginalised cohorts, actually putting out our information that you know, we are an inclusive organisation, these are the changes that we have made in a hiring process - cause I think before you go to hiring, you need to do four steps before that, and five steps after you've hired right. So the onboarding process has its issues, and you need to see how you are changing these processes for the marginalised communities, right, like so for example, again, I'll give you a trans related example. When we started hiring a trans person, we realized that our systems - or you know, most of our processes are guided by the systems that we are there. You know, we will say that, you know, have a first name and a last name, and you have to enter these things, then we had to go back checking that how do we put the taken name, if in the case where the legal name hasn't been changed for a transitioning person. Same thing from a persons with disability, we wanted to look at reasonable accommodation. So we looked at - saying dyslexia, so I, myself am a dyslexic, or a person with dyslexia. And I realised that when we hire people, we do provide certain amount of aptitude tests, right, at the beginning, that is numerical reasoning or verbal reasoning. Both of them affect a person with dyslexia in terms of dyslexia, and dyscalculia. We went and we checked that, what is the reasonable accommodation that needs to be provided, and now we provide extra time, at the time of the time when they're providing this aptitude test. You know, because dyslexia is seen so much as a point of
Sandhya Ramesh 23:34
Stigma
Zoya 23:35
you know, of a stigma, you know, that like, oh, you know, this person is a slow learner. It affects their thing, and hence, they might not be capable to even come a part of it. I think that stigma is what we're trying to affect. And I think it's, we're on the right path. And hopefully, a lot of more was dyslexic thinkers join us
Parmesh Shahani 23:51
So Zoya is being modest. Godrej Properties is the only company in India which has actually been recognized as being dyslexic friendly. It is truly a badge of honor.
Zoya 24:01
Thank you.
Parmesh Shahani 24:01
As have been so many other awards. Can you quickly take us through some of - because it's quite fascinating, right? In every cohort, your interventions are so purposeful and intentional, right? Like say the trans accommodation policy, for example, or the enhanced amount of money for hormones, or for surgery, the fact that you have to just complete a six month probation or you know, say for persons with disabilities the fact that you have a very, very specific not just, you know, providing software and and infra but a very, very specific learning, so can you take us through some of these so that the listeners can know some of the hard work that goes behind some of this work?
Zoya 24:40
Sure. So whenever we get into a cohort, we try to understand the equity gap that exists with this cohort that they are not able to at least enter the workforce or why they are not able to excel in the workplace. Right? What has happened is that the conversation that we've had with these people is where we have actually learned a lot more. The trans accommodation policy that you mentioned, it came from a learning of hiring a person who is trans, right, I would consider myself as a very privileged trans person. But then there are people from the trans community that are not so privileged as me. I'll just mention this one particular case where we hired a trans person in Pune, and through our channel partner network, they were able to identify a home - when I say channel partner, meaning retail brokers, being in real estate, we do have channel
Parmesh Shahani 25:24
People who sell the house for you and get the commission.
Zoya 25:26
Yeah. So we do have them on on our connections, and we'd got them a house from that. They even paid the token. And then they were going into their house, which they had I actually got a lease on and the housing society or the RWA, they stopped them saying that, you know, you can't enter this space, because trans are not allowed. What happens is that that person calls me up, and it's like, 11pm, at night, you know, and she just asked me one thing, which was, which still stays with me, and she says that, you know, are we even really human? And that time I spoke with Megha, and I said, you know, hiring is not - it's the easiest thing to do.
Parmesh Shahani 26:03
But it's the first step
Zoya 26:04
It is the first step, but how do we kind of let them survive and let them thrive at the workplace? And that's when trans accommodation as a policy was also being discussed. And we came out saying that, okay, Can we take the properties on our name, and then sublet it? You know, it's just, it's a little more work for admin teams to find houses. And I'm really being decent about saying that little more work. It's a lot of work. So the first accommodation that we managed to get in Pune, after this incident, my admin team took around 17 or 18 rejections as Godrej before we got the 19th one saying there, okay, this is a space that we have. Now, if an organization like Godrej faces this, then then individual has almost no -
Parmesh Shahani 26:44
We know the Kochi Metro example very famously
Zoya 26:47
Very famous where, you know, they were given the jobs for the metro line, the metro line runs within the city limits, they did not get accommodation, they had to go in the outskirts. How much will they travel?
Parmesh Shahani 26:56
And then most of the trans employees left, not because they didn't like the job -
Zoya 26:59
I think in about 3 months they left
Parmesh Shahani 27:02
they couldn't find a home right? Yeah.
Zoya 27:03
So yeah, this was one of these examples. Then, in the space of persons with disabilities, we launched something called Disable Me, the campaign name ideally comes from the space that you know, what are the spaces? Or what are the actions or the the elements that disabled somebody and what is it that this-ables them? You know,
Parmesh Shahani 27:21
T-H-I-S A-B-L-E M-E
Zoya 27:23
Yeah, so the logic was always to identify what can we do as an organisation in our workspaces that moves away from the whole abelistic point of view and creates a space that is accessible for everybody. We did a lot of sensitisation in the form of a Mario inspired video. We made three videos, one for Speech and Hearing impairment, one for visual impairment and one for locomotor disability. In each video, the character - main character, one from inspired from Mario was with the person with the specific disability and how they navigated the workforce. The logic was, how do we make complex conversations or complex topics such as disability accessible to the employees itself, right, because they might not be aware. And again, we did not want to do a presentation we didn't want to say you know, this is Right to Persons with Disability Act, there are 21 types of disabilities - how do you break such complex pieces and then kind of make it access to
Parmesh Shahani 28:17
but you accompany all this with real action right, with sites which are actually PWD friendly, where people can work with real infrastructure, with software, with everything right.
Zoya 28:27
So simultaneously, we're doing a lot of hiring with this right. That's why I said representation along with the sensitisation. We did hire people from locomotor with locomotor disability. We hired people with speech and hearing impairment along with that with visual impairment. We learned along with them that what can we do as reasonable accommodation? So just to help plugin that we do have a site in Pune which we call as the All Inclusive Model Site. When I say an All Inclusive Model Site means, we looked at representation to mirror the community that we serve. So we have 50% Cis-men, 40%, cis-women and 10% LGBTQ and PWD at site. Plus, we have incorporated visual cues into the site design itself, along with just - I'm not even referring to accessibility, or I'm not referring to just gender neutral washrooms or an inclusive washroom. But in the design where we have the insignia theme of Everyone Is Welcome Here, featuring - because what we realize is that we can sensitise our employees, okay, we can make them sit through sessions, we can provide email communication, but how do we do it for a customer? So when they walk into our site, they should know that this is Godrej, this is what we stand for. And you will find people from different walks of life. And that was one thing. In that same site, we do have something we call it a Silent Site where we have hired speech and hearing impaired persons along with a sign language interpreter, so that there the communication barrier is met. Plus we are teaching ISL to the other employees who are non SHI, so that over a period of time at least they are able to learn some basic communication without the need of an ISL interpreter. Last i'll plugin is women, where over a period of time, obviously Godrej's group has always been looking at how do we excel in bringing women into the workforce. The recent changes that we have made in terms of small policies, you know, so I think we worked on the whole caregiving policy where we looked at paternity, we looked at maternity and we looked at, are these terms really needed? Can we move into a primary caregiver? Can we move into a secondary caregiver? Can we look at what is the support that an individual requires to even provide from an elder care point of view? Going on to - we have launched something as the POSH SOS helpline, where we realised that, you know, some of our sites are extremely far, because construction won't happen in the midst of the cities. So a number that you can call if you feel unsafe, not for the sake of redressal, but for the sake of just feeling safe at that point of time where you're feeling unsafe, right. We did partner with a another vendor, where we now provide an employee assistance program for women going onto maternity leave. So you know, when you're planning your child or when you're just getting into the whole space of pregnancy, then what is the support that you require? And lastly, recently, we've launched CREW, as you mentioned in the starting. So CREW stands for Collective of Real Estate Women, where we are trying to bring in all the women from real estate as an industry together onto a panel. When I say a panel, I'm meaning a space, you know, where collectively we're looking at what needs to be done in the industry to increase representation, and also increase the leadership positions of women moving into leadership positions. So yeah, that's -
Parmesh Shahani 31:36
So lots of exciting work. And thank you, Zoya, for sharing all of these with all of us. Sandhya, I want to ask you tell us about some of the things that you are doing, and how you're actually taking DEI at Godrej Consumer from, you know, nice to have to imperative and imperative to the future success of this company.
Sandhya Ramesh 31:58
If I had to just kind of broadly talk about the areas of focus, I think one has been and will always be representation, right. I think the overarching question of asking ourselves what does equal look like? And how can we get there, by when can we get there? Also, what would that be in terms of different markets? And being an FMCG organization, we have to acknowledge manufacturing as an industry has had its own set of systemic barriers. Sales - a large chunk of our workforce comes from what we call general trade sales, right, which is really feet-on-street interacting with Kirana stores, with the distributors, right. And I think to be able to drive representation in these buckets, therefore, I feel requires lot of you know, concrete action. I think we've all put down saying what does our representation movement need to look like in the next one year? You'd see a lot of that is going to be powered by - we have an initiative called 100 Women in Sales. And this is probably one of our big goals for this year. In fact, talk about sales as an example - along with that comes a focus on infrastructure. Now, as soon as you're thinking about women in sales, they're going to be on the field the entire day, you honestly -
Parmesh Shahani 33:19
Washrooms
Sandhya Ramesh 33:19
and I think the number of field visits that I've done and shadowed - just the ability to get access to clean washrooms, right. So, one is, yes, I think we're looking at a tie up with Woloo, which is a toilet aggregator. And we've just launched that for our women in sales. But at the same time, that can't be the only solution. Because then how are you holding your channel partners responsible for the quality of the partnership you have with them? And this is where the distributor checklist comes into play saying that what are the five to seven basic things that we're expecting all our distributors to have in terms of infrastructure? The other ancillary basic is safety. And you can do POSH, like I said, we've been reading about legal systems since 2017. But to be able to do it in the spirit of prevention of sexual harassment, right? I think a workplace for a woman in Field Sales is just unending, because you can have experiences anywhere anyhow, that can really, I think, disable your overall faith in a career, a brand, etc. Right. Now we're extending this entire piece, because there was also a learning saying that given that the ecosystem is so limited, and what is framed today as your internal committee, which is, you know, a committee set up for handling cases around sexual harassment in the workplace is largely restricted to most of our organised, you know, players, right? What can protect us if there is something that happens at a distributor point, right, or at the detailer point? So I think we started this comprehensive exercise, because it is required by all establishments which have at least 10 employees to have the internal committee. Without the internal committee, there is not even a space where you can pick it up and redress it. And all of us know how much it actually takes for women to go to a police station and file a complaint. So you need to really get into the depth of it. And I'd say this has been some of the work. So we've started mapping out all our retailers, we've started mapping out our third party employers to say, you know, do you have an IC - an internal committee in place? Do you conduct awareness, because a lot of our stuff in the sales also comes from third party employers who work with us. So we've started this mapping process. The manufacturing ecosystem is exciting. Because along with it also comes and I just realised, you know, for a very long time, I've always believed that DEI as a function may not really sit just only within HR, right? I feel like it's a very organisational level function that cuts through and permeates through - because the minute we are going into manufacturing, and if I just had to pick up, you know, this whole piece on care and maternity leave, if I had to look at an implementation SOP, I need to go back to really understanding how shift operations are planned. And do we have some of the best practices and shift operations that may not exist in India, but could exist in developed countries? And what can we borrow from there? Because you're talking about job assessments that happen in pre maternity, to say, you know, what is the load the person is handling, is the person given adequate breaks because, you know, manufacturing is also an industry which relies heavily on productivity, and that can immediately write off 15-20 minute breaks, right? You're also I think, surrounded more by men. So I think adding a little more gender balance will also kind of establish some bit of empathy on these categories. But when you're talking about the implementation of a care policy, you're talking about a pre maternity period, you're talking about a maternity period and a post maternity period. Some of the complications that come up in implementing this in a pre maternity period is what is the kind of job the person is doing? Whether there is some form of a cover employee who's shadowing the role, so that when the person is away on maternity, you know - so there's a lot of workforce planning that really comes in. But when you are in towns that are non cities, I also feel like the social conditioning and the the social sensitisation is a lot higher, you need to be able to engage with families, you need to be able to, you know, continue to be in touch with the person that they can have a career after they give birth, right and after they are a parents.
Parmesh Shahani 37:30
So that even if the husband or in law is not enthusing them to come back.
Sandhya Ramesh 1:00:56 37:35
We had such an inspiring story from you know, Malanpur where, and this was not with maternity, but was with marriage, right, where one of our colleagues was actually getting married. And we had her partner - like when they were talking about the marriage discussions. She said that, yeah, I see myself continuing work after marriage and the in-laws were like, What are you thinking? I mean, he already has a business, why don't you just join his business? But the partner actually stood up for her and said, that is entirely her decision. If she wants to work, right. I think it's important for her to exercise her agency around it but -
Parmesh Shahani 38:14
A lot of your work is on this as well.
Sandhya Ramesh 1:01:49 38:17
So a lot of social conditioning,
Parmesh Shahani 38:17
I hope a lot of people listening are understanding that DEI work is really comprehensive, right? It's not just making policies.
Sandhya Ramesh 38:21
It's very comprehensive, and then I think coming to the post maternity phase, I think, going back to that conversation we had - in the first six months of returning when you're just trying to make sense of your body clock after six months of, you know, giving birth to a child. I mean, how does one expect you to be on night shift every week - you know, one week, every month, right? So I think a lot of the DEI work, Parmesh, that we are currently doing is really going back and saying we have these fantastic policies, right. But if I had to look at, you know, the implementation, and is it really benefiting the person at the other end? I think that's the question that we need to ask ourselves.
Parmesh Shahani 39:01
Tell us about some of the exciting work in the new factory that you're co-building?
Sandhya Ramesh 39:08
So it's also been envisaged as a lighthouse. Right? And when I saying like, it's a lighthouse factory, all in terms of digitisation, you're also talking about, you know, the aesthetics, the workforce, you're going to have a very different generation of workforce, that's going to be
Parmesh Shahani 39:24
So, lighthouse factories for those listening, means best standards. It's very hard. There's very few lighthouse factories in India.
Sandhya Ramesh 39:32
And very good sustainability standards
Parmesh Shahani 39:34
It means meeting the best global standards
Sandhya Ramesh 39:37
Around technology, sustainability and DEI -
Parmesh Shahani 39:39
Infrastructure
Sandhya Ramesh 39:41
DEI is, of course, a key component of it. We're looking at establishing a gender balanced workforce. I think on an average, we're looking at about 400 employees between the permanent and a few contractors, as well as the apprenticeship program that there is, so we're talking about gender balance, we're talking about at least 5% individuals from PWDs and the LGBTQ community. The project is going to be commissioned in November this year. A lot of work is going on into structuring the kinds of changes right and, and that's why I say DEI goes so far beyond the HR department, because a lot of my time right now has been spent with project teams, with the infrastructure teams
Parmesh Shahani 40:24
building ramps with -
Sandhya Ramesh 1:03:47 40:27
Yeah, we're looking at accessibility designs, and we're saying is this adequate for the communities who are coming, for the volume of the communities right, aesthetically, can there be different spaces and remember, we propose like an equity space, which is going to be like, you know, a spot for all our people to just hang and chill and be themselves, right. So I think one, a lot of work around in for accessibility. Secondly, we're talking about digital accessibility. So our whole first block is access, right, is the first part of our framework. We're also looking at access in terms of recruitment. So we've also, you know, already started hiring. So I think we're already a gender balance with respect to all the white collar hiring that has happened. We finished most of our blue collar hiring, as we speak. Next week, we are planning for our hiring drive of persons with disabilities, where we're expecting at least about 40 to 50 persons with disabilities are going to be coming in to Chennai. And then our last cohort will be the LGBTQ community that we're hiring in the month of October, right. And onboarding in December. So I think overall access as a piece has started taking shape. The second part is really integration. And we're already thinking about, you know, what are the onboarding policies that we need? What are the ancillary legal, you know, structure and machinery that we need? Like, for example, if you're hiring persons with disabilities, you need a liasoning officer. So what would that mean, in an ecosystem where they don't know who a liasoning officer is? Who can be that liasoning officer, what is their role, right? Similarly, with respect to, you know, trans - by hiring from the LGBT community, if you do have trans people on your roles, you need to be able to have your compliance officer, right. So I think putting some of those legal pieces in place is also equally important. So we're also focusing on that as part of the, you know, entire integrate pillar. And then we have support, which is really to say, how are we going to support these communities to thrive, it means tweaking some of our policies at a manufacturing level to make them more inclusive, ensuring that, you know, if we need to have a trans accommodation closer to our factory, what does it mean to have that right, so those are the pieces that we're already trying to think of right now. The last two pillars are develop and enabling success, right. Develop really focuses on and I think this is like a lot of learning that I've had earlier on in my career where we were consulting with a client who had persons with disabilities. But when they kind of saw their career trajectory, after 10 years, they were doing the same work. And all of that came from their experience on a survey where they said there is no career development progression, they are not being paid fairly and promotions are not fair. And this cohort reported lower feedback, which was a starting point to do this investigation, where you eventually arrived at the fact that nobody was thinking about a focused career path or plan, right. So I think the fourth piece and how we want to be able to work on it, is also to say, can we take an apprentice, like as part of the National Apprenticeship promotion scheme, which most manufacturing forms hire from? Can we have persons with disability we've hired we've identified a couple of programs in mechatronics, that they can also do while they're doing their apprenticeship with our organisation and see how they can also be upskilled so that, you know, ride the entire wave of industrialization 4.0, as we may see it, and then fifth one is enabling success. I think if you look at most of our CSR activation programs, if you look at community outreach programs, they're also going to be targeted towards supporting everything that we want to do because the DEI is far beyond and I'm - so many examples that I've cited. It's cannot be contained in the walls of your organisation.
Parmesh Shahani 44:13
Yeah it's comprehensive
Sandhya Ramesh 44:15
And you can't fix it just for us, it's very comprehensive. We're hoping that this framework kind of also creates a blueprint for a lot of manufacturing organisations who could go along the way and create more inclusive ecosystems.
Parmesh Shahani 44:29
And this apprentice program is also what Zoya, you've been doing in real estate as well. And I think a lot of our Godrej companies, actually not just us - a lot of the companies we speak to, when we meet them at other awards and all these other things, we realise that, you know, a lot of this work is actually happening across corporate India, right, whether it's in building the infra, whether it's in creating these pipelines, because that's the only way we're going to go -
Zoya 44:55
True, Parmesh. I think so a lot of what we managed to do in I think August of 2022, is when we really launched the pride internship program for an LGBTQ cohort point
Parmesh Shahani 45:05
To learn about real estate.
Zoya 45:06
Yeah, because if I look at real estate, generally, a hiring manager will want to have this plug and play kind of resource, right? That's the key thing for them, right? They get somebody from real estate, has been there for about two years, and knows the game and then they're just putting them up. So the training gets real. But if I am going to be hiring from, say, marginalised cohorts like LGBTQ, I'm not going to find it in real estate, seeing that 12% is the thing. So, if we have to do hiring, it has to be building for the cohort, right? It cannot be that we are buying the resources available, right? Because they are not there. And hence the pride internship as a concept was coming. And I do see a lot of other organisations doing in the same space, okay, they launch a queer internship or a pride internship. But it gets limited to hiring interns. The aim shouldn't be to hire interns, it should be to bring in resources, make that a pipeline for talent that you are able to convert to a full time position. If you will end it at an internship, then you're not building that learning journey for them, neither are they actually going to get converted, and your end objective of increasing representation doesn't happen. And that's where I feel that we have, at least in the last few years, been able to establish a pride internship, rather than launch one, I think, and I will use the two words very differently, because we do have some converts, now, I think around 14-15 from the internship, we do have people who have exited us at some points of time during this internship, but it has become at least a pipeline builder so that they're coming -
Parmesh Shahani 46:34
to a career and that's what you were also talking about. Sandhya, right
Sandhya Ramesh 46:36
Exactly, so we're saying that the National Apprenticeship Promotion Scheme anyways exists. Instead of making it so male dominant, one, can you make that more gender balanced? Because, one, you have more women coming into this stream. Because what is our biggest challenge today, Parmesh, in manufacturing is - you don't find enough women in the ITI streams of what we call core fields, which is a electrical, you know, plumbing, etc. You will find them more in beauty, you know, those ancillary courses, right? Yeah. So can we establish a program that has a better gender balance right there? Can we establish that program with disability representation right there and support them with the necessary courses that can actually upskill them into where the economy is doing? I think this is the big investment that organisations need to make. It's also very sensible, because you anyways are getting a lot of benefits from the program itself. As the organisation, the government incentivises you -
Parmesh Shahani 47:30
It's truly win-win. For now, I'm gonna ask you, one lastest lastest question. What is the hardest challenge that you both think we have to solve humare line mein, in this field? And then ask second hardest so Sandhya, you say hardest. Zoya you can say what is the second.
Zoya 47:46
That's difficult.
Parmesh Shahani 47:47
You want to go first?
Sandhya Ramesh 47:49
No, I'm just continuing on the line of humour, though, I think the hardest challenge to solve is DEI is a very lonely function. And for DEI professionals who don't have a sense of humor or a humor group within their organisation, it's going to be very hard for them to survive. So I think that's the hardest challenge that we need to solve.
Zoya 48:08
I think from a work point of view, I'll say the second hardest. So the hardest for me right now is the inclusion of persons with disability, right, because the world is built in such an ableistic point of view, even it doesn't come naturally to me at points of times, right. And I think we really need to change the way we think, to include persons with disability, because the world is being created in such a way that is exclusive of them - whether it is the city infrastructure, whether it is coming to the offices - education as an access itself is such a big issue. Because when I see I'm an equal opportunities employer, I have to create eligibility criteria for a particular role. And the roles itself have also been thought through by ableistic people, right. So say, for example, if I'm a hiring manager, I will think that, you know, if I can do this role, then this other person should be able to do this, because these are four or five tasks. They've already weeded out of, majority of the persons with disability, who they think will not be able to do these tasks, right? And then we really need to go down back to the drawing board. So say that, what are the negotiables and non negotiables of this role, that a person with disability would be able to do, rethink on what the compensation for that role will then demand, and then kind of go hunting. You know, I think, a lot needs to be done on thinking that through, because otherwise, it's only going to be retrofitting, which you will not be able to do, and it will not be at scale, that we will be able to hire persons with disability for sure.
Parmesh Shahani 49:44
Sandhya?
Sandhya Ramesh 49:46
If I had to answer it at a philosophical level, Parmesh, for me, it would be giving up power for those who are in power, right, which is typically your majority groups today. Yeah. And honestly, unless we're creating - we're not creating space, I think the entire evolution of equity/ equality is going to stagnate. Right? So I think that's probably
Parmesh Shahani 50:10
How do you incentivise those in power to share the space with others?
Sandhya Ramesh 50:14
Exactly, exactly.
Parmesh Shahani 50:15
In a way that they don't feel threatened.
Zoya 50:17
I think I'll just add to that. The whole concept of a workplace being a shared space needs to be understood. The moment it becomes my space, which - for that duration of that period is going to be your space. And hence, applying that power thing that you know, these people are not allowed in this space. But at a period of time, you will also leave this space and there's a high probability there's attrition, there's stuff that happens - that understanding that this is a shared space needs to come in. And I think once that comes in, then the concept of power is understood better.
Sandhya Ramesh 50:47
True, true.
Parmesh Shahani 50:49
Helping them understand that it's win-win, for them to share is actually their win. Then, second?
Sandhya Ramesh 50:54
True, true. I think that the second, and a more logical level is talent, we've got to acknowledge that if today your competitors in the market are coming back and saying we are also experiencing very high attrition of women, you've got to know that just borrowing stealing women from one company into another is not going to solve the long term talent crunch. So I think for organisations to fully understand comprehend that investment in talent means a lot. And that can be at multiple levels, it is at a primary education, secondary education level, how are you ensuring best curriculum? More women in STEM in the 11th and 12th. Create more mentorship. You know, better support. And so you really need to know where your money - whether it's part of philanthropy, whether it is part of CSR - how is power these channels, you know, driving towards a potentially brighter future
Parmesh Shahani 51:49
so that you can have your pipeline.
Sandhya Ramesh 51:51
So you can have your pipeline. And I think, because this is going to be - this work for talent is going to continue, you know, for the next three, four years, unless some of us really also invest in long term strategies, right. Yeah. And and I think just to converge, like the DEI space that, as I see right now is really the creator's space. Yeah. It's a space where you're going to keep looking at how this function permeates across people, policies and practices, across marketing, across CSR, across
Parmesh Shahani 52:21
products,
Sandhya Ramesh 52:21
products. So I think it's a fabulous space, and there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now.
Parmesh Shahani 52:28
For this episode, I want to thank both of you for coming for sharing with such honesty, vulnerability, and humur, both your journeys.
Mae Mariyam Thomas 52:40
Thank you for listening to India Included. If you enjoyed this episode, tell us! Please subscribe or follow, and leave a rating and review on the podcast app you’re listening to.
To find out more about us and the work we do, visit godrejdeilab.com. You can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at godrejdeilab. Stay tuned for more.