Mae Mariyam Thomas 00:16
From the Godrej DEI Lab, welcome to India Included. Here's your host, Parmesh Shahani.
Parmesh Shahani 00:28
Hi everyone, welcome to another exciting episode of India Included. I'm your host, Parmesh Shahani, and this is going to be a brilliant, thought provoking, enlighting episode, in which you will learn so much about the history and the future of DEI with one of the world's OG DEI experts. So, put on your seat belts and get ready for the ride.
Even before I founded the Godrej DEI Lab, people were asking me about the quote-unquote “backlash” against DEI. They were saying, isn’t it an American concept? Hasn't it been imposed on the Indian corporate sector by MNCs tuned into US concepts of social justice? Is it woke? And now since the US and all are turning on DEI and anti-wokeness and all of this - Is India also going to become anti DEI? And obviously, for me, the counter-argument is pretty easy, as I'm sure it is for everyone who's listening. No, DEI is not an “American” concept. The idea of social and economic justice was not invented in a boardroom in California – these are actually ideals that have been dreamed and fought for throughout the world. Ideas that are the bedrock of DEI are also what gives us in India our constitutional values. They're part of the laws that Indian workplaces have to follow. And as you’ve heard, and I hope will continue to hear throughout this podcast - please listen to all our episodes, all of them are epic - DEI is something that we Indians take very seriously, as seriously as people take in other parts of the world.
Second: While there’s a lot of noise about ending DEI and “ending wokeness” - you can't see me but I'm air quoting around wokenesss in the studio - in the US, the signals are more mixed. All the polls are consistently showing that most people in the US actually like and accept the idea of racial inclusivity, of cultural sensitivity, of gender equity, and of queer justice. They don’t hate Pride, or the idea of more people from historically excluded groups in the boardroom. And corporate US is reacting to both the signal and the noise – they are going quiet about programmes that might attract online trolling, perhaps but actually staying committed to fairness and anti-discrimination. And as for global impact of some of this: I can tell you that at least one US-origin firm that might have publicly rolled back Pride in the US just had me over to their Indian campus to speak to their queer ERG. And it wasn’t just for my good looks although I must say that has often played a part, now what to do. But, as Nargis sang, "duniya mei aaye hain toh jeena hi padega."
More broadly, right, these tensions and conflicts in DEI have always existed. And my guest today is a true giant, someone whose life’s work has involved confronting and resolving these complexities. She’s a veteran corporate leader, the author of the book Leading Global Diversity, Equity And Inclusion, and as I just told you, one of the world’s OG DEI experts. She's played a major role in inventing the role of DEI. I’m so proud and so happy - thrilled and excited to have on the show Dr Rohini Anand.
 Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Rohini Anand. I'm so grateful that you agreed to join us on this podcast. So thank you. And loads and loads and loads of love and gratitude to you.
Rohini Anand 04:23
Thank you, Parmesh. It's my pleasure. When you reached out to me and asked me to do this, I had to say yes, because having a conversation with you is a highlight for me.
Parmesh Shahani 04:33
Thank you, Thank you. You know, this podcast episode is a chance for all our listeners to just get to know you and your incredible work that you've done and you keep on doing better. So I want to start very much at the beginning by this one moment that you describe in the introduction to your book, "Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion." For everyone who is listening, this is the Bible. This is the book that really, all of us in the field go to first and use it as our operating manual. And Rohini, in that book, you know, before you became this giant of a leader, a beacon in the corporate world, you described this moment where you're a very young woman in the 1970s, sitting on an aeroplane for the first time, headed to the US to study, and your stopover is in Heathrow. And you see that the only other South Asian women there are the cleaners in the bathroom. And it gives you this shock, this jolt of recognition that you're coming from a place of incredible social privilege. And also absolute outsider status, perhaps, where you'll be going, right? So can you share a little bit about your early life before that first plane ride? What did it take for you to make that journey? Both - me and I think our listeners as well, would really love to know how did this journey before contribute to making you the leader that you became after?
Rohini Anand 05:58
Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And, you know, thank you for talking about my book and Parmesh, thank you for your contributions to the book because, you know, you're on all of those pages that I have written, so really appreciate that. But yeah, you're right. I mean, to provide some context, in the 1970s, I came to the United States as a single young immigrant woman. And in those days, you know, a lot of my colleagues were not necessarily working. Some were, of course, but, you know, some had done their bachelors and were getting married. And you know, my father had studied in California. He went to the United States after doing his bachelors. He had, you know, he was a gold medalist in physics. This was pre partition, right? The scholarship that he got to go to the United States was in film. So he was, you know, a bit of a maverick because he did film, he worked with the likes of Cary Grant, went on to get the Golden Bear Award. And the reason I share this is because he encouraged me. He said, you want to do your master's? I think this would be good. And you know, while he had himself faced racism in his travels through southern United States, he never let that sort of bias my view of the US and my experiences. Obviously, he had many, many, very positive experiences. So, you know, that particular incident that I described in the book of, you know, landing at Heathrow, and the only other South Asian women, Indian women, that I see are women in colorful salwar kameezes, cleaning the toilets, cleaning the airport. And, you know, in my mind, it was a sudden sort of, you know, reality check, the shock, you know, "would I be lumped together with them?" And you know, I started thinking about things like my skin color, my accent, and also, you know, you mentioned privilege, right? So would this - my association or the way I'm being perceived, would that diminish my class privilege? So it was, it was, you know, sort of a new awareness, a new awakening for me that took many, many years to unpack.
Parmesh Shahani 08:09
I mean, I just want to understand, like, you know, India, plane, master's in history, PhD in identity, and then you go to the corporate sector. Like, what was that?
Rohini Anand 08:18
So for me, it was not such an intentional kind of a decision, right? So I had done history in Elphinstone College. And that was sort of a logical progression for me, but, you know, if I can just talk about one other thing, Parmesh, in terms of this, you know, it's a privilege piece, right? Because, you know, you asked me about how did that lead you to the work that you do also, right? So I think this DEI work is very personal - and my story, it always comes from a place of your story, right. So my story is very integral to who I am, because growing up in Mumbai, you know, I was surrounded by others like you, right, who pretty much looked like me. And with that came this privilege of not having to think about my identity. You know, I didn't have to give it any thought. That plane ride, that moved to the United States that was very pivotal. Both literally and figuratively - because now I was not the center of my world, right? I was perceived as a foreigner. I was perceived as an immigrant. I was perceived as an outsider, as you said. I was perceived as a minority and you know, I was completely me unprepared for that. So it was only when I was perceived as a minority did I recognise the privileges that I had had being part of a majority. And that's really what this work is about. You know, I hadn't recognised those growing up in India. So this work really, for me, is about levelling the playing field. You know, it is about understanding what it means to be an outsider, because that's really the core of DEI work. So, you know, for me, my, as I like to say, my vocation and my avocation are perfectly aligned.
Parmesh Shahani 09:58
And also, as you're recognising that you're, you have privilege, but you're a minority, you're grappling with this tension of, But you don't want to be like the, like the women that you met in the airport, although you are very much like them, and that tension. And from that comes this career, right? So, I mean, you know, and I don't know if we resolve any of our tensions, but I think as we, as we go through life, we can, you know
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Rohini Anand 10:23
Yeah, I think you become aware of them. And I think that's the key thing is, and how you are perceived and how that self awareness informs, you know, what you do and how you interact with people. I think that's -
Parmesh Shahani 10:37
And then how you use whatever you can to make the world better right?
Rohini Anand 10:40
Absolutely. The question that you asked me about, how did I land up in corporate America, right? But honestly, after I got my PhD, I wanted to do something that was, you know, had more of an impact, where I could see the results. So I worked for a nonprofit initially, heading up - you know, they were doing multi cultural conferences and I kind of led their consulting practice. But what happened was when I met the CEO of Sodexo, Michel Landel, I was so amazed with his leadership, with his vision, with his conviction. And I saw this as an opportunity. I mean, was working as a consultant for this nonprofit and this was an opportunity for me to really shape and change the culture of an organisation internally. But when I joined Sodexo, I had no idea they had a very serious lawsuit that was filed by African Americans. It was a promotion discrimination lawsuit. And initially I really questioned the wisdom of, of the organisation in hiring me. I'm not African American. I'm Asian and why would they hire someone like me to resolve this issue.
Parmesh Shahani 11:50
This is around 2002, right? This is around 2002?
Rohini Anand 11:52
Correct, Exactly. Absolutely. It took me completely by surprise, but I have to say, you know, you - connecting it back to the question you asked me earlier about the self awareness, that was the biggest learning I have ever had in my career because I had to learn how to listen to people's lived experiences that are different from mine without diminishing them, without saying, oh, you're overreacting, you're - you know, plus, and build trust with them. People who are very different from me and without their generosity of spirit, of these African American leaders, I would never have been successful. At the same time, the leadership was all white. And I had to be that bridge and build trust with them, you know, so that to me was really sort of pivotal and shaped, uh, how I approach this work.
Parmesh Shahani 12:42
Yeah. And then, of course, you became very famous - one of your early, you know, legendary achievements at Sodexo was the gender balance case study in which you actually prove the business case for improved women representation there, right? So in a sense, you were able to bridge your academic knowledge and influence corporate policy. Do you want to tell our listeners something about that? And for everyone listening, remember, this is 25 years ago. It's the beginning of DEI as a practice. It's the beginning of DEI as a discipline. It's very rare and unique for organisations to even think about this.
Rohini Anand 13:17
Yeah. Thanks, Parmesh. So I think there's certain things that we did right. So one was sort of this leadership commitment and conviction, you know? The leadership at the top, but it took work. So that particular piece is very important. And then, and the CEO, you know, I mentioned him, Michel Landel. He had this conviction and commitment and, you know, for various reasons, but for business reasons also, right? So he positioned me right. So a year after I joined, I was reporting into HR - he had me report to him, which is a big deal, at that time was a very big deal. He made me sort of, you know, do this work globally. He provided resources. He took a stand. I'll share one quick story with you.
Early on, I remember very clearly, I joined in January. In June was gay Pride month. And I put on our website, you know, information about gay Pride run because the organisation had never, you know, focused on this. I got personal hate mail with passages from the Bible saying, "you're corrupting the morals of this company." Fast forward, you know, I like to say we went from class action to best in class because it's, you know, very different culture. But he took a stand. I remember a client basically saying that I want you to take off your information about your pride employee resource group. Now, any other leader might have said, "Oh, we're going to lose a client. You know, we need to..." But he took a stand. He said, "look, you know, this is part of who we are. If they don't like it, forget it. There are enough, enough organisations that, you know, are aligned with our values. So we're not taking off this information." So that is, to me, leadership, commitment, and conviction, you know, because you have to be - but the other thing is this piece about this gender study that you talk about - I think what happened was, we made a very clear case about the importance of DEI to the business. So two things - one is, we did do this research, you know, we had been sharing data from McKinsey and Catalyst and, you know, Credit Suisse and Deloitte and everywhere, about the business case, and the managers were saying OK, but we're different. You know this is a different organization. So what we did was, we looked at data from 50,000 managers, 70-100 entities around the world, and we correlated what we call gender balance teams are teams of 40-60% women with the KPIs - the key performance indicators that were important to us. So if I remember correctly, they were client retention, employee retention, employee engagement, safety, and financial outcomes. And on each one of those five KPIs, the teams that were gender balanced outperformed, okay, but this is what's interesting. So if you had less than 40%, clearly you didn't get as good results, but when you get more than 60%, the results started plateauing. So what that says is, it's not about any group being better than the other. You just have to have that optimal mix. But one other thing, Parmesh, that I'll say about this business case that we built was when I joined, you know, at the time, Sodexo was in the United States in 12,000 locations, globally in 40,000 locations, because we, you know, provide food and facilities management.
Parmesh Shahani 16:37
Yeah. I just want to tell everyone who's listening that Sodexo is a staffing company. So that's the business.
Rohini Anand 16:42
Right. So food and facilities management. A lot of, you're right, a lot of people employed. So my thing was, how are we going to change the culture of an organisation that's so geographically dispersed with managers working out of, for instance, the Godrej location, right? And what started happening, and I will admit that this was not an intentional strategy - landed on it and then I milked it, then I really leveraged it. So as we cascaded our materials, our initiatives, our trainings, the client started noticing. So for instance, Godrej would say, you know, what you're doing is very interesting. Can we get some more information on it? Can we attend the training? So all of a sudden, there's white male middle level managers in the United States - that were largely white male - now have interactions with the clients in a very different way. They're not seen as running the cafeteria, but on a leadership issue, on a C-suite issue, they're being called in. So they started then reaching out to my team and me and saying, Can you come in and speak to Godrej? Can you come in and speak to Google or wherever? And so all of a sudden now, it became a pull, where diversity became a differentiator that provided access, that led to business development. And in the process, my team would touch $1 billion worth of business a year. So that business case became very, very critical. And then the last thing that I'll say is that the metrics were very important, you know, in terms of doing it right, because there was an incentive link to diversity and it was decoupled from the financial performance of the company. So, you know, whether your company did well revenue wise or not, this was paid out. So those, I think were the three things that, you know, we did right. But that gender study was very pivotal in making the case for why you know, DEI was important as was, you know, the quantifying the impact on the business.
Parmesh Shahani 18:46
Thank you. As you were talking, we've done some of these things at Godrej as well, right? So linking senior leaders' compensation - last year, we mandated that 15 percent of all senior leader goals are linked to either people or planet, and quantifiable, measurable, and 15 percent of their performance will be judged on this, irrespective of financial performance. And it's amazing to see how in one year, everyone's numbers have moved, everyone is doing better as well. So just some of these nudges have helped. And because you've done it, because so many other companies have done it, when we suggest ideas like this, we're like, you know, it's been proven, other people have done it, we do it, and then we build that case for it. Likewise, I mean, you know, the same way that you said about how you became known for that and were advising others, there are so many other case studies. For all our listeners, IBM went through the same journey. They actually spun it off because they realized that because they were one of the first companies to talk about LGBTQIA consulting, they realized that as they were developing software solution for clients, the clients were asking them about this. So soon they started giving them the training modules, until someone at IBM said, "hey, wait a minute, this could be a vertical." And so they spun it off as a vertical and I believe it now makes them tons of money as well. So it could either be a revenue generating source, it could be something else, but clearly, I mean, you know, when someone does it, it does well, it helps others to do it. And then you you profit in so many other directions that you could not imagine also. In your case, it was elevating Sodexo to think of itself as differently and to place itself up the value chain and also make a ton of money. But for so many other people, it could be something else, right? Like when LemonTree does it, they get more customers because when you stay at a LemonTree hotel, you know that 20 percent or 30 percent of the staff are persons with disabilities and with pride, right? So.
Rohini Anand 20:44
Exactly. Yeah. And the other example is Merrill Lynch. You know, we were talking about Todd Sears earlier. And what he did was, you know, he developed this team that reached out to the LGBTQ community in terms of their estate planning. And, you know, the target was 24 million dollars a year for this particular niche market. And over four years, they generated a $1.2 billion, I think in revenue. I think the important thing is to make it an enabler of business success, however you look at that, whether it's a people piece or engagement or productivity or revenue generation. I think that's the key piece.
Parmesh Shahani 21:22
Yeah. So Rohini, while you were doing all of this at Sodexo, you know, America was changing, right? Again, on the streets, this, and it continues - disproportionate police violence against African Americans. For example, culture wars heating up, Gen Z finding its own voice. While you were doing this work at Sodexo, how was your own thinking changing or evolving? And what were some of the responses you were seeing around you not at Sodexo? And maybe, you know, who were you being inspired by in terms of, you know, other leaders in corporate America, or maybe not even in corporate America, like as this work was growing, where were you learning from?
Rohini Anand 22:01
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that, you know, in doing this work, you really have to be very tuned to the external ecosystem because that really informs how you do this work, right? And with diversity, equity, and inclusion, transformation work, there's always this pendulum that swings from one extreme to the other. There are always headwinds, right? There's always opposition, whether it's internal or whether it's external. So that's nothing new. What started to happen, I mean, if you look at it, right? So when I started doing this work, it was a lot about compliance. Right? It was - you know, we have to keep out of trouble. It evolved to - let's make, you know, okay, we'll do this work because it's good for the organisation. Some actually went to the extent of making this, you know, making it core to the business that it benefits the business. Right? But a lot of organisations were just, you know, doing it. It was never central, till the murder of George Floyd. Correct. Right? And that's when, you know, you have this flurry of sort of engagement. Appointments of Chief Diversity Officers increased exponentially. You know, billions and billions of dollars were given for racial equity work, not just in the U S but globally. But once that - we pass that, right, those that were doing it in a performative manner, just for branding reasons, started dialling down. Many of those commitments were never delivered on. You know, for those that it was important, that they really saw the business benefits, stuck with it. So for me, you know, listening to what's happening in the external world, but staying focused on the core pieces, regardless of what's happening externally - now there's a lot of backlash against diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Parmesh Shahani 23:51
From the anti woke movement.
Rohini Anand 23:53
Absolutely. The anti woke movement and all that. But it's those companies that see the benefit to the business that may decide to call it something else. That's happening. They're calling it, rather than DEI, they're calling it inclusion and culture. They're leading with inclusion. They're doing it. So, you know, they're not necessarily drawing attention to the work. In fact, Larry Fink, you know, BlackRock's CEO said that we're going to continue to do our CSR work, but we're not going to necessarily, you know, publicise it. You know, so long as that work is being done, I think you've got to really sort of think about what is fundamental to your organisation, regardless of what's happening outside, but at the same time, be tuned to the external, you know, headwinds and adjust your strategies accordingly. So.
Parmesh Shahani 24:42
Yeah, no, I like that you place it in context and say there's always been, you know, there have always been headwinds. So this backlash that we are seeing now is nothing new. We've faced it before and it will always be there and we've always managed it. I want to actually ask you about, what you said about performative versus real. And, you know, in a sense, that's the crux of the work we do, right? And in a sense, that's how the field of DEI has grown. So what does real DEI work look like in terms of being comprehensive? And what would performative DEI work look like? I'm sure, all our listeners of this podcast and the millions and millions that are out there are only interested in real work. We believe in performance, but you know, go to the theater, go to the cinema, and pay for the performances you consume, but in work, so let it be real. So tell us about the difference between these two.
Rohini Anand 25:39
With the murder of George Floyd going viral, a lot of organisations were doing, you know, work to check the box, to just look good to the public, to have figureheads and it was very external facing. And I'll tell you, Parmesh, that my advice to organisations has always been first clean your own house. Make sure that you're doing it right internally. So there's no disconnect between how your employees experience you and what you're saying to the external world. So, you know, I think the performative pieces, as you said, theater, it's optics, it's, you know, for the sake of the brand. It is about making sure that you've got commitment at all levels in the organisation, making sure that DEI is embedded in your core processes, not just HR, you know, marketing and sales and AI. You know, I mean, I think you've got to really make sure that it's everywhere, that people are talking about it. They're asking for the diversity lead to come and help them view things. I mean, for instance, I'm on the advisory board of Sanofi - and Sanofi is one of those organisations that really is very substantive in what they do. For them, it's about health equity, right? It's about diversity in clinical trials, because all this impacts their revenue, impacts their bottom line. Treat it like any other business imperative - measure it, hold people accountable, report regularly. Those are the things that make it sustainable, you know, so that it becomes very much a part of the lexicon of the organisation and the DNA of the organisation.
Parmesh Shahani 27:26
Because now you're, you know, you consult globally, are these things that you see everyone doing across the world? You know, is there a local context to some of these things or are DEI principles, you know, fundamental, like values and not context dependent?
Rohini Anand 27:44
That's a very interesting question that you asked, right? So I think clearly, I don't necessarily see organisations across the board, you know, engaging in a transformation. Oftentimes people say we want a training, but towards what end? What are you solving for, right? Sometimes it may be an entry point, but I think you've got to really ask yourself the question, you know, what are the pain points in the organisation? If it's a training, what is the training intended? What is the intended outcome? You know, what are we solving for there? So not all organisations do it. But I think to your second point about the local context, I think the context is absolutely critical. You know, I'll give you a very quick example about one client that I worked with. They had a race training, and the race training was developed in the United States, and they were rolling it out globally. Now, you know, race is very contextual. It's very universal, but it's very local, right? Racism is universal. But it is very contextual, and, you know, you've got to treat it, you know, address it within that context. So they had an activity which was a hot button activity, and they put up these two cards in India, right? One was guns and the other was abortion. Now in the United States, those two words triggered a lot of reactions, very polarising, but in India it landed flat completely. So the folks in India said, well, if you had put up religion, and divorce. Those two things would have gotten people. So, you know, it has to be, you've got to contextualise this work. And in doing that, you've got to take the support of local change agents because you know, the entry points in India, you know - you know how to, you know, address these issues. So - but on the other hand, there are certain things that are universal. You know, your core values. So if I can take the example of LGBTQ, right - you know, I think there are different ways of approaching it because there are laws, right, uh, that penalise people who are gay.
Parmesh Shahani 29:49
Yeah, and for multinational companies, it's hard if you're operating in different markets and, you know, some of which have LGBTQI marriage and some of which criminalise it, right.
Rohini Anand 29:58
Precisely. Now, Kenji Yoshino has a great model, right, where he talks about, you know, when in Rome - and some companies basically abide by the laws. There are other companies that have the embassy model, which basically says that, you know, within the walls of our organisation, we are going to provide you the same benefits that we provide in LGBTQ liberal countries. And then there are others that are advocates that, you know, push for change. And I think there's a way of doing it - so if I can connect your, you know, localising piece with this example. So in the book, I actually talk about Barclays, you know? When they were in, you know in Singapore, you know, at the time Singapore had anti LGBTQ laws. Now, of course, it's changed, which is wonderful, right? But what they did was, along with other MNCs - other multinationals, they supported this Pink Dot Festival, okay, financially, and they got local organisations involved. So the signal was, you know, this is a safe place for, uh, the LGBTQ community. Now in 2018, when the Singaporean government banned multinationals from supporting or sponsoring this pink dot festival, they had done their advocacy work - low key, behind the scenes - because there were enough local companies that took it on and kept it going. So there's a way of doing it, which is not sort of - it can be behind the scenes. I think that adhering to a local context means understanding it. It doesn't mean that you don't gently push for change because, you know, in the United States living here in, in the US, there's certain things that - I've lived here so long, I don't see, till someone like you comes from the outside and you're able to point certain things out, you know, that helped to be a disruptor.
Parmesh Shahani 31:50
Yeah, no, thank you for that. And I love Kenji's work. I've used it in Queeristan a lot. And, you know, it's been also great to meet him personally and hang out and learn so much from him. And that model is actually so, so, so useful. So for everyone listening, you can actually find the white paper on their website as indeed so many of their writing as well, or just, you know, buy Rohini and my books together. If you go online, maybe you'll get a package deal for both of them. You spoke about being transformative, right. And that also has potential, but it's also - you know, being not safe, um, is also risky, right? And I'm thinking about how in 2008, at Sodexo itself, you know, there were transformational moves made towards women's inclusion, you created a program that addresses the gender talent gap by looking at violence against women through workshops, communications, and policies. You know, these are - many companies would not talk about, say, violence against women in their workplace. They would focus on, say, safer things. So what are the risks and rewards of doing something which is, say, not safe, if you can just tell us a little bit about, say, maybe from that experience.
Rohini Anand 33:08
Yeah. So I think, you know, you've got to have the courage to push the needle. And I often say that, you know, change happens at the intersection of people and processes, right? So you can have the best processes in place. And I think you have to, you know, embed DEI in processes, but ultimately it's the people piece that, you know, gets at the heart, that transforms leaders, that transforms people. So I think if you can humanise Some of these issues and bring it close to people, then they're more willing to address it. And that's how we address this, you know, whole issue of violence against women is, is sharing the stories, and when you see it's one of your colleagues who is courageous enough to share their lived experience. You know, that also takes a lot of courage. You know, as some say, whatever the issue is, it's like coming out of the closet again and again and again. And that's painful. You know, it's, it's not easy to do. But, if you can humanise that - both humanise, but also make the business connection. Yeah. So, you know, where we actually did this, you know, addressing violence against women, it was also about, you know, sort of the lost productivity where women were away from work. And even when they were at work, you know, there's something called presenteeism where they couldn't focus - and I think it goes to the LGBTQ community. I mean, that parallel is amazing because when you don't have a sense of belonging or any, any outsider group, - you can't contribute to your fullest. You know, I'll give you an example. I talked about Sanofi that I'm on the advisory board of. They're actually doing something very brave. They're going to address National Hijab Day. Now that's a very brave thing for a French company to do. That came from the employee resource group. So, you know, I think that it does take courage, but I think you have to humanise these issues and storytelling plays a great role in that. So.
Parmesh Shahani 35:16
Yeah. And support it with just making the workplace completely safe for all employees to belong, right. You know, you spoke about, you spoke about Kenji and various models, in terms of where an organisation wants to go, and about context being everything, right? So in some parts of the world, maybe race plays a more important consideration - and others, it could be age or gender or disability or LGBTQIA, or you know, caste, religion, so many manifestations. When you are now working with, you know, companies as a consultant, as a board member, how do you make sure that they achieve their goals purposefully, intentionally, without compromising on these, uh, perhaps conflicting considerations, right? So, how do you operationalise some of this intersectionality and some of these organisations that you're working with? It's not easy and we've been grappling with this both at Godrej and, you know, in the larger Indian DEI space ourselves. But I just wanted to hear from you and I wanted our listeners from you about how you are working through some of these.
Rohini Anand 36:26
Yeah, I think, you know, intersectionality is very critical. We tend to sort of pigeonhole people, you know, but, you know, for me - yes, I'm a woman, you know, I'm an Asian immigrant, I'm a professional, I'm straight, cisgender, I'm able-bodied. These are all part of my identities and I have privilege in certain areas, you know? So again, I think you've got to look at individuals through that intersectional lens. And I think that where you're measuring things - in fact, let me, let me tell you a quick story about sort of, you know, able bodied privilege. I remember very clearly when I was doing a workshop, um, years and years ago, I did this workshop, you know - I was fairly junior and I did this workshop for a group of 50 people that were not sighted. They were blind. Okay. I had not thought through my own sighted privilege at that point in time. So I go in there and I do this piece. And then I ask them a question, okay? Now, in that room of 50 people, 20 people raised their hands, okay. But how do I call on them? They don't know I'm calling on, you know, one x individual. They don't know that there are 20 people that have raised their hands. And I had a very hard time figuring that out in the moment, because I had not thought through my own sighted privilege. So we all have privilege in some aspects of our identity, but we are all intersectional human beings. And I think more and more, I encourage employee resource groups, for instance, to work across those dimensions, you know, so they can allow people this chance to really lean into their intersectional identities. But the other piece that I will say is that one of the things - and we talked about measurement, right? So, what often happens is people talk about representation goals, like, you know, so many women, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's important - I mean, I think it's important to have that, but what's also important is to have what I call the lead indicators, right? These are those actions and behaviors that need to be measured, that need to hold managers accountable for because those if done consistently will change the culture in an organisation. So that's another opportunity to really address intersectionality because you can then start looking at what is it that an organisational leader should be doing to really nurture that intersectionality? So what are they doing in terms of, you know, disabilities or how are they mentoring or coaching people who are different than themselves? How are they sponsoring individuals? All those things done consistently.
Parmesh Shahani 39:18
And all those things should be on goal sheets and measured and rewarded, right?
Rohini Anad 39:21
Absolutely. Absolutely right.
Parmesh Shahani 39:23
And then representation is a lag indicator then to you.
Rohini Anand 39:26
Exactly right. I mean, that's the outcome you're looking for. It's these things if done consistently will change the culture and get to the lag indicator, the representation.
Parmesh Shahani 39:36
Well, thank you. For everyone listening. I hope you realise this is a masterclass with Rohini. Rohini, for anyone who's listening and who wants to consult with Rohini Anand LLC, how do they get in touch with you? I mean, I know millions of people listen to our podcast already - billions, actually. Why millions only? I mean if they're not in the US where you live and work, if they're in India and they want to hang out with you and they want you to come in, how do they do that?
Rohini Anand 40:04
Yeah, thanks Parmesh. So all my information is on my website, it's www.rohinianand.com. So you can go on the website and, you know, see all the work and, you know, reach out to me through that.
Parmesh Shahani 40:17
Yeah. And I want to ask you, you know, besides the consulting, and because of your decades of expertise as a practitioner, but also before that, through the PhD as a researcher, as a thinker, where do you see this discipline of DEI going - intellectually, as well as in terms of growth, right? Do you see it's becoming a field? At our lab, we're trying to map this and we are seeing all kinds of programmes all over the world. Some are one week long, some are now two years long in terms of master's programs. Are you seeing it evolve as a field with, you know, specialties and, I mean, you had to figure your way out, right? But if someone today says, I want to do DEI, I want to be a DEI professional in the same way I want to be a finance professional or a marketing professional, what would you advise them to study?
Rohini Anand 41:06
So I think, you know, clearly there are sort of courses and programmes and certificates on DEI. You know, the two that come to mind are Georgetown University has one, which is very good. Cornell University has one. So there are, you know - I think, you know, doing internships in this field is always a great idea because it gives you hands on experience. But I also think that if you're in an organisation, get involved in their DEI efforts. If it's not there, launch something. I mean, I remember this one young person, uh, who basically was in the tech field at Sodexo actually, and he became involved in the ERG, and he became so involved that when I had an open position to manage the ERGs, he went all out. You know, he prepared himself. He applied for the job. He got it. And now he's heading up, you know, DEI for a big company. So, you know, show that your passion, show your interest, get involved. But there are definitely courses that do it. In terms of the field itself, I think that this is one of those, you know, fields that really draws on all your leadership skills. Because it's about your understanding of the business. It's about strategy. It's about your relationship building skills. It's about culture change and transformation.
Parmesh Shahani 42:27
Yeah, psychology -
Rohini Anand 42:28
Absolutely. Everything. So it's like, you know, any other leadership position. So to me, regardless of what happens, and I said this before, Parmesh, that there are headwinds, you know, there are - you're right in the headlines, you're seeing organisations like Walmart or McDonald's, you know, dialing back and dismantling. There are organisations like Costco, where the board has said that, you know, this is important enough. We're going to stay with it. But many organisations are definitely doing the work, but not doing it in a public facing way. So I don't think it's going to go away because customers want it. Employees want it. Think about Gen Z, you know? They want, I mean, for them, this is part of who they are. To me, it's not going away. We just have to weather the storm. We have to be resilient and keep doing what we're doing.
Parmesh Shahani 43:19
And irrespective, it's going to need talent to work in these places and to understand. So you're saying having someone who can have a blend of all these various fields and experiences would be much better to do the, the agile work that a DEI professional is required to do. Right?
Rohini Anand 43:35
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Parmesh Shahani 43:37
So we know it's not going away, but how is it going to look like in the future? So if you were to crystal ball glaze, what does good DEI look like at an organisation of the future? I don't know what the future is now. Earlier it used to - it used to be 50 years, but maybe let's just say five years from now.
Rohini Anand 43:56
So I think, you know, all this noise, the headwinds, I mean, I personally think it'll settle down. Good DEI looks like, you know, where it is part of our daily lexicon. It's where, you know, whoever the, you know, professional is on DEI, is called on to advise in every aspect of the business, whether it's AI, whether it's marketing, whether it's sales, whether it's advertising, whether it's HR, talent, whatever it is. It looks like, you know, organisations have truly embedded DEI in all aspects. They've demonstrated the benefit to the business and to talent, and it really becomes truly an enabler of business success. So I sort of go back and forth with this piece around, you know, completely embedding DEI, and it depends on the organisation's maturity, to be honest. You know, there's some organisations, you know, where - PNG, maybe others where - you know, it might work because it's so much a part of the ethos of the organisation. But on the other hand, if it's not called out, it can be lost. So I go back and forth between the two, but regardless, I mean, I think personally, it's here to stay.
Parmesh Shahani 45:13
Yeah It's here to stay. It's pervasive. It's not just in corporations. It's in schools, colleges. Society - everywhere.
Rohini Anand 45:22
And if I can add one other quick thing, regardless of what happens in the United States, I think India can really demonstrate and take a leadership position in this. I mean, I find that many countries and companies in Europe are very slow to move. India is nimble, agile, and I think can really take, you know, the leadership in a very, very multicultural country.
Parmesh Shahani 45:47
No, you're right. And in fact, we have, uh, I mean, we have headwinds here, of course, but we also have tailwinds, right? We have companies that care, we have various national and state governments - you know, there are different priorities for everyone, but all of them care about something or the other, as we are seeing in our practice, both at Godrej as well as when we look, talk to or work alongside other companies as well, we have people that care. We have, you know, an economy, which is growing, maybe 1 percent up, 1 percent down, but it's growing. So there are, yeah, it's an incredible moment right now to be part of this transformation here. And you're right. I think if we can learn, if we can work alongside, you know, other regions, other parts of the world, learn from each other, and from pioneers like you, in a sense, you know, who made the field happy, we can evolve the field to where it needs to grow next. So I'm very, very grateful that you agreed to come here to, to chat with us, to share your wisdom, your knowledge, your years of experience with all our listeners. And I can't wait to meet you in person, hang out with you, show you our Godrej DEI lab and, you know, make you meet our, our wild and fun team and hang out with all of us. And until then sending a big, big, big, big hug over the airwaves to the chilly part of wherever you are in the US
Rohini Anand 47:14
Thank you Parmesh and to you as well. Look forward to seeing you and thanks for inviting me.
Parmesh Shahani 47:19
Thank you, and everyone, that was India Included with Dr. Rohini Anand. I hope you like it. Please follow Rohini. She's a star on LinkedIn. Please read her book. Of course, please follow us as well. We are like a baby star, just about starting to shine bright, but show us love online, on LinkedIn, on YouTube, on Insta, and keep on being good. Keep on doing good. Keep on imagining and re imagining the world around you to be better. Lots and lots of love.
Mae Mariyam Thomas 47:53
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